Author Topic: Japanese  (Read 6186 times)

Offline Gunderson

Re: Japanese
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2010, 10:31:58 PM »
Lol.

Offline 2257

Re: Japanese
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2010, 01:17:14 PM »
Learning Japanese (as a second language, anyway) is a bad idea. Don't do it. You'll end up like me. Do you want to end up like me? That's what I thought.

Offline Placeholder

Re: Japanese
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2010, 06:05:49 PM »
Also, another thing about why Japanese would be hard for English speakers; verb tenses.

Pics or it didn't happen.
Placeholder

Offline 2257

Re: Japanese
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2010, 07:48:57 PM »
pics

It's not so much tenses, as there's only two of those. But the full range of conjugations is far beyond English, and each of several verb classes conjugates differently. Even if you learn all the conjugations and what they mean, they can stack. So you have to deal with abominations like a causative-passive-potential-past-polite-negative form or something.

Adjectives also conjugate (or should that be decline?). In fact, there's really not a clear difference between adjectives and verbs in Japanese. A negative verb is treated grammatically as an adjective, for example.

Offline Placeholder

Re: Japanese
« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2010, 08:27:31 PM »
That's weird... what do adjectives and verbs have in common anyway?
Placeholder

Offline 2257

Re: Japanese
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2010, 09:29:54 PM »
Well, any verb can be used as an adjective. So for example "okkakeru inu" (okkakeru = chase, inu = dog) would mean something like "the dog that chases" or "the chasing dog". This is actually a special case of the general principle that a sentence in Japanese can be converted into a subordinate clause by putting it before a noun or nominalizer, with okakeru being a one word sentence. You could also use this, for example, to say "neko wo okkakeru inu" (neko wo okkakeru = chase cats) meaning "the cat-chasing dog" or "the dog that chases cats".

It also works in reverse. "Ie ga ookii" means "the house is large". Grammatically it's more like "the house larges".


Offline Placeholder

Re: Japanese
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2010, 09:34:26 PM »
Ah, I see.
Placeholder

Offline Walkazo

Re: Japanese
« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2010, 11:49:37 PM »
pics

It's not so much tenses, as there's only two of those. But the full range of conjugations is far beyond English, and each of several verb classes conjugates differently. Even if you learn all the conjugations and what they mean, they can stack. So you have to deal with abominations like a causative-passive-potential-past-polite-negative form or something.
My knee-jerk reaction was "oh God, why is the word completely different in every box?", but then I remembered that French is just like that (Conjugations for "Aller", which means "to go"); it even has provisions for politeness (use the pronoun "tu" for "you" in casual circumstances, but use "vous" is you're speaking to a superior or someone else who deserves respect). I figured out that language, so I'm sure I can get a grip on Japanese too, given enough time and elbow-grease.
Too many fools who don't think twice
Too many ways to pay the price
Don't wanna live my life in the real world

Offline 2257

Re: Japanese
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2010, 12:39:55 AM »
Ah, I see.

I must have articulated it better than I thought. The reaction I was expecting was more like "wtf are you on".

pics

It's not so much tenses, as there's only two of those. But the full range of conjugations is far beyond English, and each of several verb classes conjugates differently. Even if you learn all the conjugations and what they mean, they can stack. So you have to deal with abominations like a causative-passive-potential-past-polite-negative form or something.
My knee-jerk reaction was "oh God, why is the word completely different in every box?", but then I remembered that French is just like that (Conjugations for "Aller", which means "to go"); it even has provisions for politeness (use the pronoun "tu" for "you" in casual circumstances, but use "vous" is you're speaking to a superior or someone else who deserves respect). I figured out that language, so I'm sure I can get a grip on Japanese too, given enough time and elbow-grease.

Luckily, there are only two Japanese verbs that change totally like this. The rest at least retain the same stem. The comparative dearth of irregular verbs (I can think of only three) is one of the best features of the language, IMO.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2010, 12:41:42 AM by 2257 »

Offline Placeholder

Re: Japanese
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2010, 12:59:51 AM »
Ah, I see.

I must have articulated it better than I thought. The reaction I was expecting was more like "wtf are you on".

I's a very linguistic people, you know.
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Offline Walkazo

Re: Japanese
« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2010, 01:03:54 AM »
pics

It's not so much tenses, as there's only two of those. But the full range of conjugations is far beyond English, and each of several verb classes conjugates differently. Even if you learn all the conjugations and what they mean, they can stack. So you have to deal with abominations like a causative-passive-potential-past-polite-negative form or something.
My knee-jerk reaction was "oh God, why is the word completely different in every box?", but then I remembered that French is just like that (Conjugations for "Aller", which means "to go"); it even has provisions for politeness (use the pronoun "tu" for "you" in casual circumstances, but use "vous" is you're speaking to a superior or someone else who deserves respect). I figured out that language, so I'm sure I can get a grip on Japanese too, given enough time and elbow-grease.
Luckily, there are only two Japanese verbs that change totally like this. The rest at least retain the same stem. The comparative dearth of irregular verbs (I can think of only three) is one of the best features of the language, IMO.
Oh good - there's dozens of French verbs (or verb families) whose stems completely change for at least some conjugations: learning them was SUCH a pain...
Too many fools who don't think twice
Too many ways to pay the price
Don't wanna live my life in the real world

Offline Martini

Re: Japanese
« Reply #31 on: June 07, 2010, 01:07:45 AM »
pics

It's not so much tenses, as there's only two of those.
That's the thing. The distinguishment between present and future is a lot more subtle than English.

Quote from: Uniju
i recommend the brass beast to everybody who can't decide if he wants to play as the heavy or as the sentry gun

7Jzxk

Offline Walkazo

Re: Japanese
« Reply #32 on: June 07, 2010, 02:03:39 AM »
We don't really have a future tense either, we just add words to change the meaning of our own infinitive or present conjugations:

"I am eating right now" -> "I will be eating very shortly" (present as future)
"I eat when I'm hungry" -> "I will eat when I'm hungry" -OR- "I am going to eat when I'm hungry" (infinitive as future)


On the other hand, French has a future tense and it adds words, depending on how far in the future you're talking about, and how formal you're being about it:

"manger" (to eat):  "Je mange" (I eat)
  -> "Je vais manger" ("I am going to eat" ("vais" is a conjugation of "aller", which as I mentioned before, means "to go", so "je vais" = "I go"/"I am going")); used for the near future; informal - it's only used in spoken conversation.
  -> "Je mangerai" ("I will eat"); used for the future in general; formal - it can be used in spoken conversation or written prose.
Too many fools who don't think twice
Too many ways to pay the price
Don't wanna live my life in the real world

Offline 2257

Re: Japanese
« Reply #33 on: June 07, 2010, 04:06:03 PM »
pics

It's not so much tenses, as there's only two of those.
That's the thing. The distinguishment between present and future is a lot more subtle than English.

You should try Chinese, in which there's no such thing as grammatical tense. Actually, Chinese verbs have no conjugation at all.

Offline Martini

Re: Japanese
« Reply #34 on: June 08, 2010, 06:23:49 AM »
You should try Chinese

No thanks bro.

3 languages is enough.

Quote from: Uniju
i recommend the brass beast to everybody who can't decide if he wants to play as the heavy or as the sentry gun

7Jzxk

Offline 2257

Re: Japanese
« Reply #35 on: June 08, 2010, 06:54:14 AM »
You should try Chinese

No thanks bro.

3 languages is enough.

That's what I said too. And then it just sort of happened without my permission anyway...

By the way, I spent longer than I care to admit trying to figure out who you were. @_@

Offline Martini

Re: Japanese
« Reply #36 on: June 08, 2010, 06:57:18 AM »
Indeed 'tis me, Marcelagus.


The only fluent Japanese speaker around here as far as I'm concerned.

Quote from: Uniju
i recommend the brass beast to everybody who can't decide if he wants to play as the heavy or as the sentry gun

7Jzxk

Offline Placeholder

Re: Japanese
« Reply #37 on: June 08, 2010, 07:11:33 AM »
You should try Chinese

No thanks bro.

3 languages is enough.

Hell no.
Placeholder

Offline 2257

Re: Japanese
« Reply #38 on: June 08, 2010, 10:35:43 AM »
Indeed 'tis me, Marcelagus.


The only fluent Japanese speaker around here as far as I'm concerned.

僕のホバークラフトはうなぎだらけだ。

Offline Walkazo

Re: Japanese
« Reply #39 on: June 08, 2010, 11:55:17 AM »
I'm happy because I just finished memorizing all the hiragana and katakana, so I could sound out everything in that sentence but the kanji. I have no idea what it meant, but still, it's more than I could do last month.
Too many fools who don't think twice
Too many ways to pay the price
Don't wanna live my life in the real world